"You can be a believer and listen to KISS".

Mr. Greif, how much Bible is there in pop music?

A lot! I have examined numerous song lyrics and also dealt in particular with the work of Andy Warhol, who was himself very religious and dealt with many religious texts. It became very clear that there are an incredible number of Christian references in pop music and pop art. We are only just discovering many of them.

However, there are not only positive references to Christianity in pop music. The Beatles, for example, often drew on strict religious upbringing in their music. 

What are the most typical motifs?

A lot of pop music revolves around the figure of Jesus in his function as redeemer. The redeemer motif occurs more frequently. Madonna, for example, staged herself at concerts as a female Christ figure, as a savior, by having herself tied to a cross. In this way, she also wanted to be provocative and offer an alternative to the male-dominated pop scene of the time with stars like Michael Jackson.

The Old Testament image of punishment by an angry God also plays a role; as we know it from the story of Job. And of course everyone knows "Rivers of Babylon" by Boney M. The motif of the chosen people of Israel in exile is often found.

It is interesting that especially in reggae there are many linguistic images from the Psalms. This style of music has deeply religious roots.

"Stairway to Heaven" by Led Zeppelin or "Gods Plan" by Drake are just a few examples of religious motifs in pop music. Why do artists use such linguistic images?

It's hard to say. On the one hand, there are personal religious reasons. Many artists were or are deeply religious. Christianity is part of their biography. That was the case with Andy Warhol, for example. Elvis was strongly influenced by the gospel and prayed before every concert. His personal Bible with numerous markings can still be admired today in his Graceland memorial.

But of course, biblical motifs also simply have a high recognition value. This is also true for younger generations. Apparently, Christianity still plays a big role in our upbringing. At least big enough for us to recognize Christian linguistic images.

Those are probably the two reasons: The recognition value and the own biography. Bob Marley was a master at combining the two.

Even as secular people, are we really still so religiously influenced that we find it easy to understand biblical motifs in our music?

It is often suggested in the media that society is becoming more and more atheistic. For example, the number of people leaving the church has been increasing for years. But I don't believe that this means that the majority of the population is suddenly irreligious. So the common linguistic images of Christianity are not entirely foreign to the younger generation. But yes, of course we don't know Christian motifs as well today as people in the Middle Ages did.

Some artists even have religious names: Madonna, Genesis, Judas Priest. Why?

It depends. Names like Black Sabbath or Judas Priest speak for themselves. The names are program. They refer to the devil or Judas Iscariot and are thus meant to provoke. Madonna is also a speaking name: a female redeemer.

However, one would always have to look at the individual case. Genesis, for example, is such an individual case. Before they came to Genesis, all band members were active in other bands. Together they then founded Genesis, which in ancient Greek means emergence or creation and refers to the first book of the Bible, the creation of the world. For Peter Gabriel and Co. Genesis was a new beginning.

Pop and rock music tend to stand for moral and sexual permissiveness. How does that fit in with sacred lyrics?

Pop deals with everyday themes. With the everyday and the familiar, which includes Christianity. It does this to show listeners new possibilities that the previous tradition did not provide. Pop is subversive! It tries to reinterpret the old, including Christianity.

In addition, it falls back on familiar motifs - including Christian ones - in order to question moral concepts and traditional values. Judas Priest did this frequently. Pop and rock musicians turn the tables and turn Christian moral concepts against a society that believes it represents precisely these. What they want to say is clear: we don't wage war and we don't want to pollute the environment. On the contrary. That's what you are! They believe they perceive a certain bourgeois hypocrisy and thus denounce it.

Don't artists also like to play with contradictions? Madonna, for example, is really not a holy virgin!

No! Really not (laughs). It's meant to provoke. Pop wants to make people think. He really likes to play with contradictions. And these usually remain unresolved. Listeners should find their own solutions.

What about today's pop music? Has anything changed there? Were KISS listeners more Christian than Ed Sheeran listeners?

As I said, the media often suggests we're becoming more atheistic. I wouldn't be so sure about that. What you can say, though, is that the situation has become more relaxed. You can be a believer today and listen to KISS at the same time. You certainly know the famous Beatles interview with Playboy, in which John Lennon claimed that the Beatles were bigger than Jesus. The reactions to that interview were very strong and hostile. There was a public outcry. That would not be possible today.

Interview: David Wüstehube